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Abortion

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Abortion

Postby Haragorn » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:33 pm

I'm surprised no topic has been made on this subject yet. When, if ever, is abortion permissible?
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Re: Abortion

Postby lyrics freak » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:07 pm

I feel that the decision of weather an abortion is permissible or not is completely up to the people who got themselves in that situation. The mother and the father. While it ends up being her choice in the end, I think that the male participant should have input on the matter. I'm not a religious person, so that issue doesn't affect me. For those people who have religion as a factor in that kind of decision...well I think they should have just as much the right make the decision to abort or carry to term and raise or give the child up as anyone else. I feel that the matter is entirely a personal choice, and should be left just that. A personal decision.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Gallium_Arsenide » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:00 am

I'm surprised that no flaming has yet transpired in this thread. Is this or isn't this the internet?

My own position I would describe as pro-choice. I don't have to worry about pregnancy, so I feel that it's always a little presumptuous of us guys to get all up in women's reproductive business. That said, abortion is no substitute for good sex-ed and contraception. No contraception is 100% effective, etc. etc. but you know, have a sit-down with your significant other (if y'all are in the sort of relationship where accidental pregnancy is possible) and talk about what you would do in such a situation. Know who you can talk to, where the various non-judgemental counselling services are, sensible stuff like that.

Back on topic: Something that's been hard to shake for me in this debate is something I said in a discussion with some friends, which was more or less "I would totally choose miserable existence over nonexistence", to which someone replied "...but you're still ok with abortion?". That's a hard one, because even without discussing the personhood/nonpersonhood of a fetus, you can look at the issue from behind the veil of ignorance and say "you know what, even if it sucks this 'existing' business seems pretty spiffy, I'd like to try it!'". Or maybe you can't. Maybe you _do_ wish like you were never born, but since you had to exist to learn that, I don't think it would be a very persuasive case for nonexistence. The problem is, of course, that abortion is two separate issues in one: the rights of the woman, and the (possible) rights of a being somewhere between blastocyst and birth. So what do you do?

Something my mom has said on occasion (ok, fine, ad mominem is not really a strong debate tactic, but she really did say this) is that she looks at abortion as a "necessary evil", which I have found to be a very useful opinion. Abortion isn't really a good 'plan A', but if you look at the cost to desperate women in countries where safe abortions are illegal, or impossible to find (ie. back alley abortions, self-abortions), it's pretty clear that making them illegal/unavailable is an unacceptable solution. How far do you go in making abortions permissable, though? Even if you're opposed to the idea of abortions-on-demand, how do you go about enforcing restrictions? As I understand it, looking for an abortion is no walk in the park. Requiring that women walk the gauntlet of interviews and doctors' notes and permissions could be pretty cruel. I also vaguely recall hearing of doctors who would circumvent as far as possible the red tape for women in dire straits. Regulation, then, seems hard to enforce, and would really only hurt women who didn't have the good fortune to know the right kindly doctors, which is pretty arbitrary if you ask me. Regulation is a pretty poor answer if you ask me.

So what do you do? Sex ed, sex ed, and more sex ed. Of course it won't magically solve everything, but what do you expect? What it will do is cut down on accidental pregnancies (I'm pretty sure there are studies to this effect). It is also worth mentioning that dismantling sexist structures in society, and opposing violence toward women should be long-term goals...but you were working on those already, right?

Also worth doing is ensuring that access to abortion isn't just writing on a page, but a real option when it's needed.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Gojoe » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:14 pm

Abortion. I have thought long and hard about this one for some reason (never have I anywhere near had a reason to worry about it).

Pretty much I think it is up to BOTH the mother and the father. I think the mother should have the final say, but she should listen to the input of the father.

The thing I had to wrap my mind around was when did it become too late to abort. When does it become murder etc. I could not define this in my head, even after thinking about it over a long period of time. I did not know enough about human biology to fully grasp where the line should be drawn in terms of development.

Can someone explain to me where the line is that it is ok to have an abortion? I mean what about contraception? That is also preventing a baby from existing. So is just not having sex. But I assume quite often both of those things are ok. Where exactly is the line for people who think that abortions are evil? (I am genuinely curious, not trying to flame or anything)

I will also just repeat what was already said.

SEX ED IS SO SUPER IMPORTANT! I think if you make talking about sex a taboo, it makes sex sound naughty and forbidden, which will entice certain young adults. I think it is important for parents to explain both the bad of sex, and why some people find it appealing, and how to be safe. Encourage your children to ask questions, and NOT to be ashamed about having sexual feelings towards someone. But most importantly. TALK ABOUT IT! Explain risks. Oh and TALK ABOUT IT! Do not just leave it up to school to teach them. TALK ABOUT IT!
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Re: Abortion

Postby trillicat » Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:58 pm

Gojoe wrote:Abortion. I have thought long and hard about this one for some reason (never have I anywhere near had a reason to worry about it).

Pretty much I think it is up to BOTH the mother and the father. I think the mother should have the final say, but she should listen to the input of the father.

The thing I had to wrap my mind around was when did it become too late to abort. When does it become murder etc. I could not define this in my head, even after thinking about it over a long period of time. I did not know enough about human biology to fully grasp where the line should be drawn in terms of development.

Can someone explain to me where the line is that it is ok to have an abortion? I mean what about contraception? That is also preventing a baby from existing. So is just not having sex. But I assume quite often both of those things are ok. Where exactly is the line for people who think that abortions are evil? (I am genuinely curious, not trying to flame or anything)

I will also just repeat what was already said.

SEX ED IS SO SUPER IMPORTANT! I think if you make talking about sex a taboo, it makes sex sound naughty and forbidden, which will entice certain young adults. I think it is important for parents to explain both the bad of sex, and why some people find it appealing, and how to be safe. Encourage your children to ask questions, and NOT to be ashamed about having sexual feelings towards someone. But most importantly. TALK ABOUT IT! Explain risks. Oh and TALK ABOUT IT! Do not just leave it up to school to teach them. TALK ABOUT IT!


I threerd the "talk about it" concept. Since GWB was president of the US, and sex-ed was diminished significantly nationwide, teen pregnancies skyrocketed in number. Turns out that explaining what causes babies is useful.

As for abortions...that's a tough one. Personally, I would never get one, and I know first-hand how unpleasant pregnancy can be. (Anyone who reads my blog will know that, and I toned it down for my readership, even.) The problem with abortion is that the most unpleasant phase comes first in pregnancy, when you're fatigued and vomiting and nauseated all the time, and people assume you have the plague or bulimia since you have no baby bump yet. It's easy to hold that against someone, particularly if you are unprepared financially and emotionally for a child.

On the other hand, I felt physiologically different within less than 8 hours after sex. My love hormone oxytocin just went ballistic to the point where I wrote a really soppy entry in my journal about wanting to marry my boyfriend and how sure I was of us as a couple and how I couldn't imagine loving anyone more. Pregnancy changes your entire physical being. Every cell of a woman's body is affected by pregnancy. Not all the workings of child-making occur within the bubble holding the baby.

Because of certain other factors of my pregnancy, I got an ultrasound at 5 weeks post-conception. My son was not even the size of my fingertip yet, and his little heart was flickering so strongly on the screen. When I was about 9 weeks pregnant, I sneezed, and I felt him react, despite his puny size. By 12 weeks his kicks were palpable. By 20 weeks, everyone could tell I was pregnant and see the kicks. Gestation for humans is 40 weeks, and first time moms typically go an extra 10 days beyond 40 weeks.

To me, it's hard to imagine a time when I would not have cared if he died, even when I hurled 8 times in one morning. The heart starts beating at 18 days. But is that when "life" begins? When is a life relevant? I think that is something that varies from person to person. But you know, I don't love my older sister any less for being 7 inches shorter than me. Why would I love a child less simply because it fits in the palm of my hand?

I guess I tend to lean on the side of "We don't know, so we shouldn't mess with it". Some other people, I would guess, consider aborting very young fetuses to be on the level of crushing a bug or a lizard, in which case you might have a little shudder (if anything) at the ick factor or the small life lost, but it won't affect you forever.

And then there's the education again. I met a particular girl only twice ever. The first time we spoke, she revealed to me that she had had an abortion previously. She was 18 years old and still dating the would-be father while going to community college. The next time I saw her, she had just learned that she was pregnant a second time (and had apparently been when I first met her but not known it) and was considering a second abortion. Her family was highly opposed and offered to either help her raise the child or do it themselves. I suggested she learn what birth control is and that perhaps she would want to reconsider, due to the damage it could cause her body to have multiple abortions. I never discovered the result. But emotionally, I felt like she was an ignorant, self-centered person for allowing herself to get into that position. I would like to think that societal (and familial) acceptance of birth control would have prevented the issue in the first place.

I have more to say on the subject, but I'll let others speak first. </soap box>
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Re: Abortion

Postby Old_Bean » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:21 pm

Well I'll give you a little back story on my feelings first, i won't go into too much detail i just want to paint a picture so that i'm satisfied you all understand where i'm coming from.

After I broke up with my first girlfriend, we decided to try the whole "friends" thing. It was working for a while until i realised the reason i broke up with her was that she was making me miserable, and that being friends hadnt changed that fact. I began to withdraw, hoping she would just move on but instead she cracked the shits and decided to tell me she was pregnant. It wasnt till much later that i realised the whole thing was bullshit.
So here I am, 21, and pregnant to an 18 year old, who was possibly the worst kind of hypocrytical christian (Home-schooled Creationist who fucks like a rabbit not to put too fine a point on it) and Pro-Life to boot. Honestly I will admit I should have used protection, but she was on and off the Pill like skittles and it was impossible to know whether or not i needed to use condoms so i just trusted her.
Straight away i wanted to get rid of it, a child meant that she would be in my life forever and i wanted her OUT of my life. I knew she wouldnt get an abortion, she hid behind her religion, that it was a life, I knew it was just that she always wanted a child for as long as i had known her. I told her if she kept it i didnt want to have anything to do with it, that it was hers and hers alone, because there was no way i wanted her to remain a part of my life, not even for a kid, who would grow up with a mum and dad who hated each other. She wore me down eventually, trying to call my parents (who i had not told about any of this) and we talked it out, i said she should make an appointment to see a doctor, and we would go together. Two days later she "miscarried".

I know that because the pregnancy was never real at best this can only be called hypothetical, but i didnt know this at the time so to me it was as real as bullet in the skull of what was to be the rest of my life. To me this child was nothing more than the embodiment of the worst thing that could ever happen to me and I was not willing to take the chance on maybe loving it later. I knew that every time i looked at it i would think of how much i hated its mother and resent it for forcing the direction of the rest of my life. A child should not have to grow up that way.
As much as you can SAY that a woman should take the mans point of view on board there was absolutely no way she was going to abort the thing and she was going to make sure i was still around to look after it, mostly because she was unemployable and needed my money. Even though i resented this nonexistant kid for ruining my life and keeping me attached the worst human being i have ever known.

I know a standard reaction here would be disgust that i would up and leave her because she was pregnant. Let me point out that i up and left her before she was pregnant. Besides that, I really cannot explain to you how much i hate her, and i don't use the word "hate" very often when it comes to people. She is honestly the worst peron i have ever known, she's manipulative, caniving, and used my emotions, my kindness and my generosity to get the things she wanted.

In conclusion, for the most part i think its a womans choice, but not for any special reason. If men got pregnant it would be the mans choice. As it is, men have no choice, no say, and absolutely no options other than kicking her down the stairs if a woman gets pregnant.

Well thats my whole sad story. Just thought i would add some perspective.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Lisard » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:05 am

I am pro-choice, but I'm very picky about it. Just assume from this point onwards, "father" means "potential father" and "mother" means "potential mother"
1. Inside a long-term relationship, I think it should be up to both the mother and the father both. While I would prefer to receive an abortion, my boyfriend would not be okay with it, for a very legit reason. His parents gave him up for adoption, and if we were have an accident, he would probably want to do the same.
Firstly, the father has no right to force her to receive an abortion. Someone I know has a mother who was forced by her ex husband to have not one, but 2 abortions against her will, and has mental issues because of it. Assuming the mother is okay with abortion, it is up to the father whether to abort or let the baby live. If he decides to let the baby live, it should then be up to the mother to give it up for adoption or keep it as their own, knowing that he may or may not decide to stay around if she keeps it. He should still be obliged to give child support if he leaves at this point, however.
2. Father bails upon news that mother is pregnant - it's up to the mother at that point. Him running out of her life revokes his right to have a say.
3. One night stand - mother's choice, obviously. She may not even know his name.

Also, I'm all for first trimester abortions (particularly first 2 months, as the baby is still a bunch of unspecified cells at that point), but second trimester abortions I'm a bit iffy about. Third trimester I am definitely against, because, given medical treatment, that baby could survive out of the womb at that point.
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Re: Abortion

Postby trillicat » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:02 pm

Lisard wrote:Also, I'm all for first trimester abortions (particularly first 2 months, as the baby is still a bunch of unspecified cells at that point), but second trimester abortions I'm a bit iffy about. Third trimester I am definitely against, because, given medical treatment, that baby could survive out of the womb at that point.


The fetus is not just unspecified cells up until 2 months.
Mayo Clinic wrote:Week 5: The embryonic period begins
Fetal development three weeks after conception
The fifth week of pregnancy, or the third week after conception, marks the beginning of the embryonic period. This is when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form.

The embryo is now made of three layers. The top layer — the ectoderm — will give rise to your baby's outermost layer of skin, central and peripheral nervous systems, eyes, inner ear, and many connective tissues.

Your baby's heart and a primitive circulatory system will form in the middle layer of cells — the mesoderm. This layer of cells will also serve as the foundation for your baby's bones, muscles, kidneys and much of the reproductive system.

The inner layer of cells — the endoderm — will become a simple tube lined with mucous membranes. Your baby's lungs, intestines and bladder will develop here.

By the end of this week, your baby is likely between 1/16 and 1/8 inch (1.5 to 3 millimeters) long — about the size of the tip of a pen.


I might also point out that around 5 to 6 weeks is when women are typically discovering that they are pregnant, either by the lack of a monthly flow or by the joys of morning sickness. If you want to make the point about unspecified cells, you really need to consider that it's well before the end of the first month that this is true. (Five weeks pregnant assumes that you conceive two weeks after the start of your previous menstruation. Thus, it's really, technically, 3 weeks since the baby making activities were in progress.)

If you continue to read the link below through the weekly stages of development, you'll note that the little person is locomoting by the end of the 8th week (i.e. 6th week since conception).
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112

Honestly, if you follow the notion that you want to be extra careful not to kill a living being with "specified cells", you pretty much have to abort within the first 2 weeks after conception. The Morning After pill exists to help women (and men, let's be honest) avoid having an abortion by shocking the system so that conception does not take place. However given that I was almost certainly at the "conceived" stage within less than 12 hours of intercourse myself, I can only imagine that other women may experience the same.

And the Morning After pill...ugh. I took it. Once. My ex-husband and I had married at 18. I started on birth control the week before we got hitched, but given that it doesn't achieve full potency for a month or two, we believed, we felt best to stay on the safe side and had me go to take the Morning After pill when we neglected to use a condom all 11 times in a particular day. I went to the health clinic on campus (and received a very shrewd look from the nurse dispensing the pill to me) and took the pill. And felt in agony for the next few days. Cramps? ZOMG! Mega-ultra-cramps! It hurt soooo bad! I swore I would never do that again. Now, I don't know if it was because I was already taking birth control or if that's the norm for the MA pill, but I'll be farked if I'm going to do an empirical study myself again.

So, what I'm saying is that I don't think abortion should be treated like, "Well, do I get elective surgery or not?" But beyond that, the Morning After pill, while a useful resource for preventing conception after intercourse, should not be used lightly either.

Also, Old Bean, I know it ended up being hypothetical in your case, but I sure as hell hope you learned your lesson about sticking your man cannon in the crazies. People ought to be taught not just the medical aspects ("This is how the peg fits in the hole. This is a condom. It does not really go on the banana.") but the ethics as well. Following your libido around gets people into trouble. I have known three other guys who experienced similar situations, but the girls were actually pregnant. Two of the idiots actually married the girl they knocked up because one of them threatened to abort and the other threatened to raise the baby without him and deny him fatherhood. The latter was going through a divorce the year following marriage. The former is trying to salvage a rotten marriage by having more children. The lesson? Don't allow that to become a possibility in your life in the first place.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Lisard » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:25 pm

*takes note of the fact that apparently her biology book and her professor are both wrong*
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Re: Abortion

Postby trillicat » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:33 pm

http://www.lennartnilsson.com/child_is_born.html

I just got linked to this guy's photography. I have NO IDEA how he took these photos, but if they're fakes, I'm truly amazed. (Should be SFW; images are of humans in utero.)
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Re: Abortion

Postby GWW » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:24 am

I'm currently taking a Bioethics course, and we're more or less wrapping up the section on abortion right now. We've been looking at abortion with a focus on moral permissibility, rather than how it should be treated legally (we'll be dealing with that stuff later). If anyone's really interested in reading some of the material I've been working with (good articles from academic journals), I could probably put together a .rar of some of the PDFs and throw it up on Rapidshare for you guys. And you can also check out the book Life's Dominion: An Argument about Abortion, Euthanasia, and Individual Freedom by Ronald Dworkin; the writing style is informative and easy to read.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Old_Bean » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:43 am

trillicat wrote:Also, Old Bean, I know it ended up being hypothetical in your case, but I sure as hell hope you learned your lesson about sticking your man cannon in the crazies. People ought to be taught not just the medical aspects ("This is how the peg fits in the hole. This is a condom. It does not really go on the banana.") but the ethics as well. Following your libido around gets people into trouble. I have known three other guys who experienced similar situations, but the girls were actually pregnant. Two of the idiots actually married the girl they knocked up because one of them threatened to abort and the other threatened to raise the baby without him and deny him fatherhood. The latter was going through a divorce the year following marriage. The former is trying to salvage a rotten marriage by having more children. The lesson? Don't allow that to become a possibility in your life in the first place.

If i may reiterate,
After I broke up with my first girlfriend,


She was my girlfriend, i trusted her, i should not have. This I know, now. To not get in this situation i would have had to not trust her at all, even though we were together.
I know plenty of people who would just say "Well damn you shouldn't trust chicks man, they're crazy!" but i hate that attitude. It sickens me that people would up and decide an entire gender is not worth their time.(this goes for man haters too)
I can't help that i trust people, even when i shouldn't, even when nobody else would. I just like to give people the chance to surprise me and be decent.

Needless to say, i have in fact learned my lesson about shaggin crazies. Now i always wear a rubber.
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Re: Abortion

Postby trillicat » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:07 pm

Old_Bean wrote:She was my girlfriend, i trusted her, i should not have. This I know, now. To not get in this situation i would have had to not trust her at all, even though we were together.
I know plenty of people who would just say "Well damn you shouldn't trust chicks man, they're crazy!" but i hate that attitude. It sickens me that people would up and decide an entire gender is not worth their time.(this goes for man haters too)
I can't help that i trust people, even when i shouldn't, even when nobody else would. I just like to give people the chance to surprise me and be decent.

Needless to say, i have in fact learned my lesson about shaggin crazies. Now i always wear a rubber.



Why weren't you wearing a rubber in the first place? Were you under the impression that you could psychically alter the behavior of your sperm? It's not a trust issue to protect yourself from unwanted progeny. It's prudence. At least you lucked out and didn't truly have any rugrats in her oven after all. But regardless...being 21 and having a pregnant gf at age 18...that's no way to secure a good life for all of you. It's practically guaranteeing poverty, which (as has been indicated elsewhere in the Quorum) is often correlated to dysfunction in families.

Anyway, biology is what it is. They swim. You catch. You win.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Gojoe » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:21 pm

I know this is like NO excuse. But it feels MUCH better with out a condom. To the point that for me, it is hard to climax when I am wearing one. So I understand how horny teenagers have unprotected sex.

Could someone tell me how much worse the pill is at protecting against pregnancies than a condom?
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Re: Abortion

Postby trillicat » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:36 pm

Gojoe wrote:I know this is like NO excuse. But it feels MUCH better with out a condom. To the point that for me, it is hard to climax when I am wearing one. So I understand how horny teenagers have unprotected sex.

Could someone tell me how much worse the pill is at protecting against pregnancies than a condom?



The standard birth control pill provides an odds ratio of 1/1,000 risk of pregnancy in a year's use. The condom, on the other hand, provides a 1/100 risk of pregnancy in a year's use. There is also a BC pill called a "progesterone only" pill (POP), which has a 5/1,000 risk of pregnancy.

And I agree, it feels insanely better without the condom. But if you're like this guy, you need it as well as for the girl to be on BC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ3lw-eNrFk (NSFW song lyrics; graphics okay)
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Re: Abortion

Postby Gojoe » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:40 pm

Is that a ratio? So the pill is much better than a condom? I thought it was the other way around.
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Re: Abortion

Postby trillicat » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:43 pm

Yeah, that's the deal. I get the breakdown in my pill pack every month, and I reread it every so often when I'm feeling so inclined. The pill is way more effective at deterring pregnancy, but it doesn't do a darn thing against STDs (other than the one that causes children).
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Re: Abortion

Postby Gojoe » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:50 pm

Ok, so hypothetically. I am with my partner. I trust her not to cheat on me, she trusts me as well. Neither of us have any STDs. Is it ok, to only rely on the pill?
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Re: Abortion

Postby trillicat » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:49 pm

Hypothetically, yes. However there is still that little 1 in the ratio. I know a couple who have 8 children. The last three are allegedly "pill babies". I have a pretty good idea of what I think she's doing with the pill, but the father believes she is taking it.

On the other hand, there are a BUNCH of other birth control methods now, such as the shot, the ring, and the IUD (which has been improved upon since the old days). Every pregnancy prevention method comes with a disadvantage, however. Abstinence, well, that's certainly a sad price to pay. The pill requires a very regular intake on a daily basis within an hour or so of the same time in order to be maximally effective. The shot (Depo Provera) is only needed every few months, and a woman's monthly cycle is disrupted, but then she has to regularly see her GYN to get those. We haven't had the shot around long enough to really know the long term effects of it, IMO. The ring I know very little about, but it's inserted into the woman's parts, so you can imagine there being difficulties there as with the old school use of diaphragms. And the modern IUD contains some metal that can burn a woman in an MRI. In particular the Mirena IUD seems to cause all the women I've known using it to have a dramatic loss of sex drive, which rather defeats the purpose unless the goal was abstinence.
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Re: Abortion

Postby lyrics freak » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:21 pm

trillicat wrote:
Old_Bean wrote:She was my girlfriend, i trusted her, i should not have. This I know, now. To not get in this situation i would have had to not trust her at all, even though we were together.
I know plenty of people who would just say "Well damn you shouldn't trust chicks man, they're crazy!" but i hate that attitude. It sickens me that people would up and decide an entire gender is not worth their time.(this goes for man haters too)
I can't help that i trust people, even when i shouldn't, even when nobody else would. I just like to give people the chance to surprise me and be decent.

Needless to say, i have in fact learned my lesson about shaggin crazies. Now i always wear a rubber.



Why weren't you wearing a rubber in the first place? Were you under the impression that you could psychically alter the behavior of your sperm? It's not a trust issue to protect yourself from unwanted progeny. It's prudence. At least you lucked out and didn't truly have any rugrats in her oven after all. But regardless...being 21 and having a pregnant gf at age 18...that's no way to secure a good life for all of you. It's practically guaranteeing poverty, which (as has been indicated elsewhere in the Quorum) is often correlated to dysfunction in families.

Anyway, biology is what it is. They swim. You catch. You win.


Nah, Old_Bean was just trusting that the girl was on the pill at the time, therefor eliminating the need for a condom to prevent pregnancy.

Old_Bean wrote:Honestly I will admit I should have used protection, but she was on and off the Pill like skittles and it was impossible to know whether or not i needed to use condoms so i just trusted her.


And as for the matter of the Pill v. Condom ratio, I think a lot of that has to do with people not really knowing how to properly apply condoms. And you should know, if you don't properly apply them (squeezing the tip while rolling, etc.) then they are pretty likely to burst upon ejaculation. Where the Pill you just have to take daily at about the same time, it's a routine thing. A condom can easily be misapplied in the heat of the moment, which I feel leads to much of it's failures.

That being said the best way to not make babies is to not have sex. However, to quote George Michael;
George Michael wrote:Sex is natural, Sex is fun

Condoms are great if you can apply them properly. The pill is a safer choice if you tend to fumble in the heat of the moment. However, I feel that the IUD is probably the best option out there if you want to still have sex and not make babies. It's a one time thing that works for several (I believe at least 5) years. It is, I'm told a somewhat unpleasant experience to get it in place though. Not painful mind you, just...uncomfortable, there's tongs and what not...
Anyway, the point is proper use of birth control is the best way to still have sex and not make babies. Causing abortion to not (very damn likely) happen.
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lyrics freak
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