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gay marriage

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Re: gay marriage

Postby Lisard » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:15 am

Why not give them the right to marry? Does it really affect you? No, not really. But it gives them rights, such as hospital visitation, and tax breaks. Imagine you're a person who has been outed by their family because of their beliefs. They won't even talk to you, let alone come visit. The only family you have now is the person you love, who is being forbidden from visiting you in the hospital, because you're not married. And you were never allowed to marry.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby Shadow JiaoJiang » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:26 am

Well, I'm a little disappointed: I don't seem to offer much of a different standpoint on the issue.

Calling it "Gay Marriage" is going to cause all sorts of problems with Pharisees (Tee-hee, use a Biblical term to describe persons in our society who act the part). Calling it a Civil Union is a much better idea.

Personally, I've been born and raised a Byzantine Catholic. I fell from the Faith for about three of our years before recognizing that faith creates hope, and without hope the will to live slowly fades away. I'm against being gay. Not that I don't like gays themselves or can't get along with them. I have quite a few friends that are gays (Sadly, I also have crushes that prefer their sex and not mine). I'm against the idea of it. I accept that people choose it, whether because they believe they're born that way or because they were converted or... whatever. I just don't see it as being... fruitful. I believe that being gay is absolutely useless as a contribution the human race. What's the use of having your unique genetic combination if you don't pass it on?

But I also don't believe in restricting anybody's rights because of their choices. (Yeah, sure, that guy killed somebody. Send him to war; he'll kill lots of somebodies for us. Make him useful) <- not really what I think, but it's comparable. Legalize same-sex marriages. It makes sense. It doesn't seem sensible to allow any religion when it might BE somebody's religion to marry people of the same-sex. I dunno. I don't care, really. It's impossible to keep a nation united when one fraction of it (no matter how small) feels oppressed or restricted in some way. Who knows, maybe somebody will find a way to splice the genes of two peoples of the same sex to make a kid. (But that's another religious debate, too. Playing God and whatnot)

(When the "first world" countries aren't meeting replacement, I feel that reproduction is incredibly important. What's the point of having our own distinct way of life when we aren't ensuring there will be a generation the size of ours to follow us?)
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Re: gay marriage

Postby GregTheAsshole » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:19 pm

I think it was trillicat who said way back when in this thread that we should just change it to civil unions for everyone. If you want to get a legal union, you go to City Hall and you get a civil union, if you want to get married in a church/synagogue/mosque/temple/etc. go ahead and do that, nobody's stopping you. If you want both, great! And if, as a religious institution, you want to prevent a certain group of people from getting married, go ahead. There is a huge difference between legal and religious unions, and as such, they should be kept seperate.

It seems to me that this is a solution that should work for everyone. Except the crazies who will rant about how homosexuals will gay-ify their children and the like... But those people are just insane, so we could just all ignore them.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby volucris » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:02 pm

trillicat wrote:
There are no laws (of which I am aware) that prohibit homosexuals from adopting children. If there are, please inform me, because I honestly am unaware.


Actually, Arkansas and Florida both ban gay adoption (the former only because there's a ban on unmarried couples adopting). Many other states allow one of the parents to adopt, but ban or are unclear on whether same-sex couples can jointly adopt a child.

I'm not really going to argue my opinion here, mostly because it's been said in the preceding 3 pages. I just hope to eventually be able to marry the person I love, no matter whether they're my sex or the other.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby GregTheAsshole » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:23 pm

volucris wrote: I just hope to eventually be able to marry the person I love, no matter whether they're my cake or the other.


I agree with that. And then have lots and lots of sex all the time. Sex in the bedroom, sex in the kitchen, sex on a plate, sex with a knife and fork, sex with icing.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby Joko » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:09 pm

GregTheAsshole wrote:
volucris wrote: I just hope to eventually be able to marry the person I love, no matter whether they're my cake or the other.


I agree with that. And then have lots and lots of sex all the time. Sex in the bedroom, sex in the kitchen, sex on a plate, sex with a knife and fork, sex with icing.


Sorry :/
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Re: gay marriage

Postby GregTheAsshole » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:50 pm

Joko wrote:
GregTheAsshole wrote:
volucris wrote: I just hope to eventually be able to marry the person I love, no matter whether they're my cake or the other.


I agree with that. And then have lots and lots of sex all the time. Sex in the bedroom, sex in the kitchen, sex on a plate, sex with a knife and fork, sex with icing.


Sorry :/


Oh no! What happened to the word filter??
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Re: gay marriage

Postby Joko » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:12 pm

GregTheAsshole wrote:
Joko wrote:Sorry :/


Oh no! What happened to the word filter??


A user raised the issue of it making the posts in the Quorum less serious. Especially with the new thread on Abortion. It's been disabled, until we can figure out a way of making it apply to some forums and not others.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby Gojoe » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:55 pm

I have gay people in my family. One of which is in a serious long term relationship, in which they have adopted 2 beautiful girls. They are not ready to be married yet, but even if they were, they would be forced to cross state lines to do this. I think this is just silly.

Here in NZ anyone can become a civil union partners. (The media calls them CUP cakes :P ). I think this is the way things should be. Anyone should be able to marry the person they love. Gender should not come in to it at all. I have no problem with someone having different ideas to me. If someone is in another religion, I have NO problem with it. But when you try to restrict what should be a basic human right (love), then you start to annoy me.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby trillicat » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8301120.stm?lsf

President Barack Obama plans to eliminate the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy keeping gays and lesbians who are "out" from being in military service for the US.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby HurlyBurlesque » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:30 pm

so he keeps saying. And yet.

Also, while the Don't Ask Don't Tell inequities are deeply wrong and are symptomatic of a really nasty attitude, the actual purview of the policy only affects that relatively small subset of the queer population with the burning desire to go kill people. Some marriage reform and recognition of queer relationships across the board would be a little more relevant, or MSP coverage for SRS (I don't know about the states, but here phalloplasty is covered for cisgendered men but not for transmen. So gross.), or any number of more broadly systemic changes right down to blood-donation policy or curriculum content which would have a more powerful impact both for the queer community and as a statement to the larger population in how they relate to queers.

But hey, apparently I'm getting ahead of myself, since he's still dragging his feet on don't ask don't tell. By which I mean actually actively defending it. What a fucking prince.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby trillicat » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:21 pm

I see nothing in that link that says that Obama is actively defending the continuance of that policy. I do see, however, that until he has made a certain decision on the matter he had opted to follow the prevailing philosophy that had been enacted into law.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby mothrax » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:05 pm

There are lots of things I would like to respond to, but I don't have the patience to go back and try and quote everything so I will do my best to make it clear...
Firstly, as an openly gay male who was raised in the Presbytarian church, my views are slightly conflicting. I feel that the government does not have a sa in this issue and should never have a say in this issue... The same rights of "civil unions" or the act of being "married" in the eyes of the government should be granted to all those of legal age... regardless of gender identity. However, churches should not be regulated with who they marry. Many churches will not marry straight people if they feel they are unfitt for it. Churches should be able to decide for themselves whether or not they allow others to marry. I am lucky enough to be a member of a very open church, and would be allowed to marry through them if not for the laws in Kentucky.

On the adoption issue, Homosexuals were very nearly denied the right to adopt here last year through a ban similar to that in Florida, though it was proposed specifically with homesexuals in mind. The only reason that it did not suceed was because single parents and teachers unions rose against it. The ban is likely to be proposed again in January and likely to be more specific and as a result pass.

As for DODT and the military, I believe it was Trillicat's comment about the whole men and women's locker rooms. I will respond to this with a comment I heard at a drag show on my 21st...
"Straight men in the room, take a deep breath, relax, and fart... Just because we're gay doesn't mean we're desperate"
Do you feel the same way about gay men in the gym or at the pool? Personally the excercise sounds horrifying to me, were I in the military and forced to undergo this experience, I would not be focused on what the other men around me looked at... Not only do I have self control, but I also would be attempting to do my best to serve my country in whatever way possible.(not my personal choice, but I do have several friends directly affected by DODT)


That is all, Peace
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Re: gay marriage

Postby trillicat » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:00 pm

mothrax wrote:As for DODT and the military, I believe it was Trillicat's comment about the whole men and women's locker rooms. I will respond to this with a comment I heard at a drag show on my 21st...
"Straight men in the room, take a deep breath, relax, and fart... Just because we're gay doesn't mean we're desperate"
Do you feel the same way about gay men in the gym or at the pool? Personally the excercise sounds horrifying to me, were I in the military and forced to undergo this experience, I would not be focused on what the other men around me looked at... Not only do I have self control, but I also would be attempting to do my best to serve my country in whatever way possible.(not my personal choice, but I do have several friends directly affected by DODT)

That is all, Peace


And just because you're not desperate doesn't mean you won't be mentally envisioning other men in your troop in your wet dreams or masturbating to thoughts of them, now, does it? Nudity is a huge (and overblown) issue in the US and many other developed countries. People are not worried about getting raped by gays and lesbians so much as the idea that people who might be sexually attracted to them would have all-access viewing privileges. If we weren't worried about these things as a society, we wouldn't segregate men's and women's public bathrooms and military divisions and gym locker rooms. But we are worried about them and we do segregate men and women. Also, just like MOST men wouldn't rape a woman in the bathroom, it does NOT mean that none would. It's hard enough to feel minimally exposed in a world where cell phones and their accompanying cameras are nigh ubiquitous. In the last few months I've seen the issue arise more than once at my local gym: in the women's locker room, when someone was using her cell phone in a somewhat suspicious manner and was angrily chided by another woman changing her apparel. No one wants to be recorded unknowingly in the locker room. We are all well aware that there are lesbians using the facilities. But so long as we are not ogled at or explicitly made aware of them, most of us are fairly comfortable. The fear of being recorded on camera and shown to someone at a later date is little different than the discomfort of knowing that someone with privileges of being in the locker room with you will be conjuring pictures of your form in the nude later on.

"Don't ask, don't tell" is the cop-out solution because no other obvious solution has arisen that puts the comfort of the many at the top. Changing that dynamic so that a fairly small minority of the population can announce their sexual preference...well, it hardly makes sense. I do not know what the right answer is, but someone will find it eventually.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby trillicat » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:46 pm

Just found this quote, which sort of helps explain a little more what I was saying above:
Thomas Jefferson wrote: There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby GWW » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:37 am

trillicat wrote:Just found this quote, which sort of helps explain a little more what I was saying above:
Thomas Jefferson wrote: There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people.


I had a teacher in high school who taught law.. he'd always say, "equality doesn't mean treating everyone equally. It's about treating everyone differently, based on their differences."
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Re: gay marriage

Postby GWW » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:38 am

Also... the quorum has been quite the ghost town lately, hasn't it?
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Re: gay marriage

Postby trillicat » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:51 pm

Yes. Maybe we need more controversial issues to discuss. Like whether or not wearing socks with sandals is ethical.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby Gojoe » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:09 pm

trillicat wrote:Yes. Maybe we need more controversial issues to discuss. Like whether or not wearing socks with sandals is ethical.
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Re: gay marriage

Postby BryanWordsmith » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:00 pm

As far as the government's control over gay marriage goes it really shouldn't be any different than straight marriage. It should only concern taxes, marriage license (you need one of those right?) and who-gets-what-when-who-ever-kicks-the-bucket (can be read "wills"). I personally feel gay (males and females) couples should have as many rights as straight couples. I can understand if you happen to be against it for religious reasons but you have to realize your religion doesn't control the world. If you don't personally agree don't enter into a gay marriage but don't stop those who have different beliefs from doing what they want because it goes against what you believe. Gays are not asking to be married in any church they wish, or even to be married in a church, they just want the right to marry the person they love regardless of their sex. They're asking for their relationships to be recognized as serious and committed and not the by-product of a conditioning. Gays for the most part are born not made. Their feelings, their love is not unnatural. Just give them what they want, after all, all they're really asking for is their basic rights.
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